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Thread starter
topgear17
Start date
Oct 5, 2011Tags
In summary, the conversation discusses the struggle to design a concept for a new project that involves using the modern Philips Fortimo 2 LED. One of the challenges is to increase the LED's efficiency and lifespan by cooling it. The conversation also mentions the use of a water cooling system, but there are concerns about maintenance and reliability. The targeted environment for this LED lighting system is indoors, specifically in the education and office sectors. The LED itself produces a significant amount of heat and the goal is to reduce it in order to increase its lifespan. The challenge is to design a modern, safe, and efficient system that can control the thermal issues and provide lighting comfort. Three key points for this criteria are controlling the thermal issues, providing lighting comfort, and having
topgear17
Basically am struggling to design a concept, me and my design team have to present a new project in 12 weeks (give or take) and me as part of a 3 man mechanical design team are struggling with research and developing our idea..Basically we have to use the modern Philips Fortimo 2 LED, and develop an efficient system, Now we're being pushed down the road of increasing the LED's efficiency by cooling the LED itself, as this will in-turn increase the lifespan of the LED."LED's biggest problem is the heat it produces"Now, one of the design team is really pushing for us to help use a water cooling system, like modern PC's have utilised in the past 5-10 years..But am really struggling on both sides, i have to either come up with some sort of design that utilises water to cool the LED's, or create a solid argument against the water cooling system, and come up with a more feasible answer..°As you can probably gather, am very new to this job, and really want to make a good impression as this is my first real project with this company, and I've kind of been thrown in at the deep end°Thanks in advance for your help
Mentor
topgear17 said:
Basically we have to use the modern Philips Fortimo 2 LED, and develop an efficient system, Now we're being pushed down the road of increasing the LED's efficiency by cooling the LED itself, as this will in-turn increase the lifespan of the LED.
"LED's biggest problem is the heat it produces"
Now, one of the design team is really pushing for us to help use a water cooling system, like modern PC's have utilised in the past 5-10 years..
But am really struggling on both sides, i have to either come up with some sort of design that utilises water to cool the LED's, or create a solid argument against the water cooling system, and come up with a more feasible answer..
°As you can probably gather, am very new to this job , and really want to make a good impression as this is my first real project with this company, and I've kind of been thrown in at the deep end°
Thanks in advance for your helpBasically am struggling to design a concept, me and my design team have to present a new project in 12 weeks (give or take) and me as part of a 3 man mechanical design team are struggling with research and developing our idea..Basically we have to use the modern Philips Fortimo 2 LED, and develop an efficient system, Now we're being pushed down the road of increasing the LED's efficiency by cooling the LED itself, as this will in-turn increase the lifespan of the LED."LED's biggest problem is the heat it produces"Now, one of the design team is really pushing for us to help use a water cooling system, like modern PC's have utilised in the past 5-10 years..But am really struggling on both sides, i have to either come up with some sort of design that utilises water to cool the LED's, or create a solid argument against the water cooling system, and come up with a more feasible answer..°As you can probably gather, am very new to this job, and really want to make a good impression as this is my first real project with this company, and I've kind of been thrown in at the deep end°Thanks in advance for your help
You are correct that liquid cooling is a pretty extreme measure, and will present maintenance and reliability issues of its own.What environment are you targeting for this LED lighting system? Outdoors? Indoors? Air flow?If you can rely on some air flow and reasonable ambient temperatures, then your main task will be to get the heat out of the LEDs and to some sort of metal heat sink arrangement. Do the LEDs that you are going to use already come with some metal connections for heat sinks, or are they just 2-lead plastic LEDs?
topgear17
Thanks, sorry i didn't explain very well, the "system" is a indoor system, directly mainly towards the Education, and Office sectors.
The LED we have to utilise is this the phillips fortimo:
http://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/subsites/oem/product_pages/fortimo_overview.wpd
There are various heat sinks available, but they only dissipate the heat from the LED itself, and don't really cool the system at all..
I was hoping to design a system that cooled the product if possible..
As with most open market heat sinks these LED's in a working environment, when operating produce a heat of between 65'c-85'c now if we could reduce that to 50'c-60'c it would increase the LED's lifespan by 25%.
The challenge is basically to develop a modern, safe, efficient system utilising these Fortimo LED's in an office/ education environment..
Three key points to fit the criteria
1. Control the thermal issues related to LED engine (in my case the fortimo)
2. Lighting comfort, (Basically not an exposed LED, create a device that lights a large area evenly)
3. Product has to be surface, recessed, pendant or wall mounted.
Mentor
topgear17 said:
Wow, those things are huge!On the cooling issue, one thing you might explore is liquid cooling versus forced air cooling, and the relative reliability of pumps versus fans (I don't know which is more reliable). Interesting project.
Studiot
I was just discussing these or something similar today in relation to fire regs with a builder.
How much energy do you loose to the forced cooling system v the gain in efficiency for light output?
topgear17
If you could utilise a very efficient system for forced air cooling, for example..
Use suspended lighting system, that's all connected on one long track that's like a hollowed out pipe, that partially houses the back of the LED's, and then simply in all four corners have small fans sucking in cold air and pumping it around the sealed system, surely that would bring the thermal values down enough to run the LED's efficiency?
Same with water cooled system.. it wouldn't require fresh water on a regular basis, as because its flowing around the system it would stay reasonably cool, and once the lighting is no longer in use (IE, during strong daylight) the water would cool to ambient temperature?
Mentor
Studiot said:
topgear17 said:
I think the issue is lifetime of the LEDs (and the associated replacement costs), rather than a lowering of efficiency with temperature. But I could be wrong on that.Even with liquid cooling, you need a place to dissipate the heat, like at a radiator with a fan or other forced air cooling.
Mentor
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berkeman said:
Indeed I was wrong on that:http://www.ledsmagazine.com/features/4/8/1Increased temperature does decrease light output.
Studiot
I was comparing the efficiency of LED to other lighting, not to itself at different temperatures. It is interesting to know about the effect of cooling though.
The point is that the electrical power going into LED luminaires either appears as useful light or heat.
With other forms the power going in appears as useful light, nonuseful electromagnetic emission and heat.
So although the LED is more 'efficient' in that a greater % of the input appears as useful light, it also generates a greater amount of heat. This was not fully realized in early designs.
I think (but can't remember) if it was here or at AAC but I posed a thread + link, a few months ago, to a components trade magazine discussing the number of electrical fires caused by LED lights in buildings and the resulting changes needed to the regulations.
topgear17
Yea this is exactly why i think if i find a solid efficient method of cooling the LED's it will be a great advantage over other design systems currently in place.As for the heat loss (wasted energy) i spent a little time trying to think of a logical efficient method to harness this, but its not really feasible within my timescale..And within my design i have to use the Fortimo LED in the link above.. so i have to try and resolve a solution for its weakness.. HEAT! and 99% of other LED's weakness for that matter...So.. if i was to go along the water cooled route, i'd still need a radiator or some sort of something to dissipate the heat from the water.. ? Hmmm...Anyone think this is a waste, going water cooled? or has any better, more feasible ideas? FIRE AWAY
pantaz
There are scores of hobbyists building high-power LED projects. I suggest looking at how they're dealing with heat dissipation.
topgear17
Thanks, i'll check those out tonight :)
Studiot
Here are some commercially available high power LED lumieres that address the cooling issue.
Note the cooling ribs on the fitting.
These also have full IP65 / fire ratings
This is not the place for advertising so I can't post more details but the catalogue has all the design information needed.
Mentor
Studiot said:
I'm okay with you posting links to this info, Studiot. I'm interested in learning more as well.
Studiot
I see the website catalogue is undergoing revision.
topgear17
Thanks mate..
really useful links :)
The Philips Fortimo LED light system is a cutting-edge lighting technology designed to provide energy-efficient and high-quality lighting solutions for various applications, such as retail, hospitality, and offices.
The Philips Fortimo LED light system uses a combination of LEDs, optics, and thermal management to produce bright and uniform light with minimal energy consumption. The LEDs convert electricity into light, and the optics shape and direct the light to where it is needed, while the thermal management system ensures the LEDs operate at optimal temperature for maximum efficiency and longevity.
There are several benefits of using the Philips Fortimo LED light system, including energy savings of up to 80%, long lifespan of up to 50,000 hours, high-quality light output, and low maintenance costs. It also offers flexibility in design and control, allowing for customized lighting solutions for different spaces and applications.
Yes, the Philips Fortimo LED light system is environmentally friendly. It consumes less energy compared to traditional lighting technologies, reducing carbon footprint and helping to combat climate change. It also does not contain toxic materials, such as mercury, making it safer for the environment and easier to dispose of.
While the Philips Fortimo LED light system offers many benefits, there are a few limitations to consider. It can be more expensive upfront compared to traditional lighting technologies, although the long-term energy and maintenance savings can offset this cost. Also, LED lighting may not be suitable for all applications, such as high-temperature environments, so it is important to consult with a lighting professional to determine the best solution for your specific needs.
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